Welcome to the second part of Upper Deck’s Introduction to Vs. System 2PCG! Today we are going to be looking at some of the things that have changed in Vs. System 2PCG from the original Vs. System TCG. To describe those changes and to provide some insight into the design and development process, we’ve asked Vs. System 2PCG lead designer Danny Mandel to give you a brief walkthrough. Whether you’re a Vs. System veteran looking to return to the game, someone who always wanted to get into Vs. System but felt intimidated or excluded, or maybe even someone who’s never heard of Vs. System and wants to know more about it, this article should serve as a decent primer for how Vs. System 2PCG will play. The battles start soon, so get ready – Vs. System 2PCG launches this summer at Gen Con 2015!
Hi Everyone,
This is Danny Mandel, the lead game designer for the relaunch of the Vs. System. A lot of people have been wondering what changes have been made to the game, so here goes…
Backstory
Here’s a little background on who I am and how this project came to be. (Feel free to skip ahead and get to the good stuff!)
Way back in 2003 I was one of the four main designers on the original Vs. System TCG (along with Mike Hummel, Matt Hyra, and Ed Fear). I worked on Vs. System for a couple years, and then went on to work on other games at Upper Deck (most notably the World of Warcraft TCG). Then I went into video games for a while before starting a tiny design studio (Super Awesome Games) with Ben Cichoski, another Upper Deck alum.
When our old friend Jason Brenner pinged us a couple years ago about working together, we leaped at the chance. Our first game for Upper Deck was Legendary Encounters: An ALIEN Deck Building Game (which was based off of Devin Low’s excellent Legendary: A MARVEL Deck Building Game).
After that Jason talked to us about bringing back the Vs. System…
Goals
We had several great discussions about the game with Jason. We discussed game design, collectability, organized play and more. We talked about which factors led to the early explosion and growth of Vs. System and which led to its eventual demise. We discussed the market and how the world of games and game design is different in 2015 from what it was in 2004 (when Marvel Origins released).
Lots of thought went into this relaunch, but for today I’m going to focus on game design. When we discussed the design with Jason, we all kept coming back to one point: accessibility.
Despite all of the original Vs. System’s great qualities, it was a relatively inaccessible game. It had lots of basic rules to learn, like how formations work, stun+breakthrough endurance loss, flipping up Plot Twists or playing them from hand, resource costs and threshold costs, team attacks and reinforcement, one free recovery, etc.
It was also challenging to play the game (let alone play well) since there were so many things to consider (especially the formation step, checking your face downs again and again, and going down various attack option mental flow charts). And because the game was challenging, this often led to slower turns and longer games, meaning that even choosing to play required commitment.
I should stop right here for a moment and make something clear. When I say that the original game was hard, I don’t mean that it was hard for everyone. But it was hard for enough players — and too hard for many potential players — that it hurt the overall lifespan of the game.
So the goal for the new Vs. System was to find ways to make the game more inviting to as large an audience as possible, while retaining the core mechanics that made original Vs. System so great in the first place.
Process
We started off by looking at the game from every angle, and we put everything on the table. We discussed which aspects of the game engine were the most iconic and which were the most superfluous. We looked at each game rule to see which ones were carrying their weight. It’s our opinion that in game design, the fewer rules the better both in terms of accessibility and elegance. This is especially true in games like Vs. System where there are so many rules on the cards themselves.
We examined small issues (like whether it was worth having threshold costs at all), big issues (like slow formation steps), structural issues (like how the steep character curve magnifies the importance of hitting your drops), and subtle issues (like wanting to up the potential for drama or meaningful decisions during the first few turns).
In the end we essentially took the game apart and put it back together in a more streamlined, faster-playing package. The new game has the same DNA as the old game, but as you’ll see, many of its systems have been updated.
What’s the Same
Before I dive into the changes, here’s a quick rundown of what’s pretty much the same:
- Each player has a Front Row, Back Row, and Resource Row. (The Back Row used to be called the Support Row.)
- You draw two cards per turn.
- You can play any card as a Resource, but some cards do special stuff in the Resource Row.
- You can rearrange your characters during your Formation Step.
- Characters direct attack each other and get stunned (and KO’d).
- Many characters have Flight and/or Range.
- There are Team Attacks.
- Characters are Unique and there are Power-Ups.
- There are Plot Twists (but they work a little differently).
- There are Locations (but they work a lot differently).
What’s Different
Disclaimer #1: It may be hard to visualize the impact of some of these changes before you’ve had a chance to actually play the game.
Disclaimer #2: For now I only have time to explain the changes. If there’s interest, I can dive into the reasoning behind each change later on.
Here are the major differences between original Vs. System and the new Vs. System 2PCG:
Wounds Instead of Endurance
Characters have a new stat called “Health.” When a character gets stunned, instead of taking stun or breakthrough damage, it gains a wound. If it takes too many wounds, it gets KO’d.
Many Characters only have 1 Health so they get KO’d immediately when stunned. This means it is important to protect them, or at least make sure they do a lot before they get taken out.
Main Characters
Each player starts with a “Main Character” in play who works just like regular Characters (called Supporting Characters), except when your Main Character gets KO’d you’re out of the game. Most Main Characters have 5 or 6 Health.
There’s lots to say about Main Characters (like how the box comes with 16 different ones, and that they make a great deck-building hook, especially for new players), but one thing I really want to cover is that unlike in most games where you have a Hero or Avatar, in Vs. System 2PCG your Main Character works exactly like your Supporting Characters: It has ATK and DEF, and some have Flight or Range. It goes in your Front or Back row and you can move it during your Formation Step. It can attack, team attack and fights in combat just like any other Character.
However, there are two major differences: 1) A handful of effects refer to Main Characters specifically. 2) Each Main Character has a Level 1 and a Level 2 version. You start with the Level 1 version, and during the game you can make plays to earn XP and level it up, making it more powerful and unlocking a new Super Power. Each Main Character levels up in a different way (Captain America likes Team Attacks, Thanos wants to KO characters, Loki likes Plot Twists, etc.), so during the game in addition to trying to shore up your board presence or get wounds onto your opponent’s Main Character, you’ll have the additional goal of leveling up your Main Character while attempting to prevent your opponent from doing the same.
Full Recovery
During the Recovery Phase, all of your stunned characters (including your Main Character) will recover.
Simpler Rows and Faster Formations
In original Vs. System, you would place some characters in your Front Row and some in your Back Row, and then decide who was protecting whom. In Vs. System 2PCG, all that matters is who’s in the Front and who’s in the Back. If there’s anyone face up in the Front then all characters in the Back are protected.
This change affects many things about the gameplay, but the big ones are: It dramatically speeds up the Formation Step; it makes Back Row characters easier to protect; it increases the value of Ranged and Flying characters (Ranged characters’ foes only get to strike back if they also have range, and Flying characters can attack the Back Row). There are also more subtle implications such as increasing the importance of team attacks, but you’ll figure all that out when you play.
Individual Turns and New Timing System
In Vs. System 2PCG, each player takes his or her own turn. There are several reasons we ended up moving away from the shared turn (too many and too intricate to dive into them now), but one simple reason is that individual turns speed up the game a ton.
The turn sequence is now:
- Draw Phase: Draw two cards.
- Recovery Phase: Recover and Ready all of your Characters.
- Build Phase: Play a Resource, Recruit Characters, Rearrange your Formation.
- Main Phase: Start any number of Combats, one at a time.
During your turn, your opponent can only play Plot Twists or use powers during Combat (this change also ups the pace of play). Each Plot Twist and Super Power states during which Phase it may be used, or if you can use it during Combat.
Revamped Resource System and Super Powers
You can still play any card face down as a resource, but the way Plot Twists and Locations work is different. Plot Twists are now only played from your hand. Locations enter play face up and rather than having their own powers, they are “spent” (turned face down) to activate Super Powers, which are powerful effects found on Main Characters and some Supporting Characters.
‘Nuff Said
Those are all of the major mechanics of the new Vs. System. There are minor details (like exactly how Main Characters level up and what the mulligan rule is), and there are some things you’ll feel rather than see (like how the flatter character stat curve takes pressure off of always hitting your drop on curve, and how you might actually play a Plot Twist on turn 1 to turn a combat your way). But I imagine it’ll be easier to understand everything once you have the cards in your hands.
Before I go I should say one more thing. I realize that some of you may feel that the new game simply isn’t Vs. System anymore. I certainly can’t argue with anyone’s opinion. All I can say is that, in making this product, we took the things we loved about original Vs. System and tried to make them even better.
45 Comments
You probably should have re-branded the game, as it would have been better received as a new game with ‘Vs System themes’. I’m going to guess that the haters and venom-spitters are going to beat your launch into the ground.
I’m going to wait to pass final judgement until I get a chance to see actual cards, and play. Personally, I hope I enjoy playing 2PCG. And I hope I can find someone willing to play the new game. But I think you’re going to lose a significant number of the legacy players (who are also your free advertising) because, quite simply . . . this isn’t Vs System.
Questions!
So only Locations can be used in the resource row. Everything else is dead? Is that like manna? I don’t play Magic, so I’m not sure.
It sounds like there’s still exhausting, but no endurance loss, therefore no use for reinforcing?
Then you lose when your main character is KO’d?
A ranged character can’t be stunned back unless it’s attacking another ranged character? Weird. But flying characters can be stunned back by anything?
Any card can be used in the Resource Row, not just locations.
You lose when your main character is KO’d, so you’ll need to strategize how to get your Main Character into the action without exposing it too much or too often. The complexities are still there, but they’ve been moved to the combat phase where they more appropriately belong for a super hero game.
Flying characters are still melee characters, they can just fly over the Front Row to attack the Back Row. And in melee combat, you can always get hit back because that’s how melee combat generally works.
Not having played very much of the orignal Vs. System (but I did know how to play), these changes seem to be for the most part making it much better overall.
Simultaneous turns was an issue, losing multiple characters per turn was an issue, NOT HITTING YOUR CURVE was an issue. So, overall, I applaud you.
Hopefully you guys will get to talk about OP soon (as a TO, it’s important 🙂
As a vs system veteran i find these new rules exciting and innovative.i tried to get some of my younger frienda into vs last year and while they played it ok,they were someehat Turned off by the cumbersome learning curve.this simplifies a lot especially the Health system,which was something i was going to insert as a “custom” rule anyway :p
Three questions.
1.when will we be able to see the new cards?
2. Why change the best parts of the game
3. Will there be any foils and/or promos
Not sure about some of the changes, but obviously have to see the cards and play to understand.
Biggest thing concerning me is the changes to locations. I hope the rules allow for more complexity in later expansions?
This is not Vs
Agree
🙁 i think it shoul´d not be called VS System… it has nothing of the mecanic of VS System…
This is very interesting stuff.
I find that the concept of having a main character as opposed to endurance creates an air of deckbuilding and gameplay around said main character, and the level ups are something about which I would want to hear more.
You didn’t mention Equipment. Is that still a factor? With Thanos and Captain America in the mix, I would assume a gauntlet and/or shield might be in order – perhaps when they level up?
Eliminating initiative and the shared turns is probably the biggest change I am seeing here. In the days we all remember, the player with Initiative would set their formation before the opponent would begin their own build, thus giving the opponent an advantage to see the initiative player’s formation before the attack. And each turn would end in recovery so that both players were ready on the next turn. Now it seems it would play more like the traditional resource games in that what is in play is what you’ve got until the recovery phase which now occurs at the start of your turn, not the end of the shared turn.
Even though that may be the greatest adjustment for veteran players, they and the new people should have no trouble adapting to traditional turn sequence.
It seems that this will be exclusive to Marvel characters right now. Are there any plans to option other franchises with the hopeful success of the 2PCG? And will there be cash tournaments at Gen Con?
Looking forward to this revival. I hope it does well!
There is a $10K at Gen Con, and we definitely have plans to bring our other licenses into Vs. System 2PCG.
I think the problem with VS was the comercial strtaegy and the “pro circuit”, not the game mechanics.
Now you are changing the game and keeping the 10k and pro’s?
Sorry, but I don’t get it
The reason behind the formation/initiative setup was that the person who attacked first had a bit of an advantage so the person on the defense, without initiative, was able to form up based on the attackers formation. They person without initiative still had an advantage even though they attacked last, formed last etc. It was balanced, unlike alternating full turns such as in MTG where the person who goes first simply loses a card draw and can’t attack unless special rules allow it.
How did you guys make these changes to the game and think they were good. SMH
Here’s one vote for getting “more explanation behind the individual changes”. (I’m sure Jeff has seen plenty more such requests over on the Vs System Collective Facebook group)
I wasn’t under any illusions that a VS relaunch would be exactly the same game but these updates are less a changing of the old game and more a new creation that borrows aspects from the original VS System. For me that’s not the end of the world and I’m certainly willing to try this game out and take the chance of lighting $50 on fire if I don’t like it but I think calling this a relaunch at this point is a bit of a stretch particularly when the goal posts weren’t just moved (i.e. “players now start with 60 endurance instead of 50”) but rather they were entirely altered.
At the very least though I’d like to understand why it was decided this shouldn’t be nearer to original VS. I get the general desires laid out in this post and the pitfalls that originally led to the games demise but it’d be nice to see even deeper into what prompted specific changes and what exactly the desired outcome of such individuals changes are.
I was under the impression this was going to be a relaunch, not an entirely new game. The complexity and strategy required to play this game well is why I played it nearly 10 years ago. And now it is just so different looking.
Interesting. I agree with others that you guys should have just called this game by a different name. It’s definitely not Vs anymore from the sound of it. I do however have two quick questions regarding it.
How small and/or big can a deck be?
Will we get any sneak peaks at cards prior to Gen Con?
These changes are wonderful. I can’t wait to give this system a go!
I couldn’t agree more! As a VS Vet, I’m ecstatic that it’s returning, and I think the changes will be wonderful! Thanks, Jeff!
Can you please go more in depth on the “Win-a-box” events at GenCon? If I have to have cards in order to play the game, why would I want to a win a box of a game I already have and don’t need duplicates of? That seems… redundant…
I personally like pretty much everything I read. You’re not going to convince those purist who think the game was perfect and you have ruined it by changing some things. All of the things mentioned sound like they will make for a more enjoyable experience.
In my opinion the original VS is dead. It didn’t have the user base to keep it alive. Slap VS version 2.0 on the side of the box and move on. It still has enough of VS from the sound of it for me. Lets get it released and spread the word and enjoy playing it. For those that will only accept the old version. There’s plenty cards still available on eBay.
Seeing this stirs up so many emotions!
I loved VS System to death and was crushed when it went away, so seeing it return makes me super happy, even if it’s in another form.
I see a lot of naysayers, but honestly the game was never going to return identical to its original form. For one reason or another, it didn’t work the way it was. But it sounds like the game designers understand its flaws and have used creative measures to either improve or eliminate them.
It won’t be the same game, true, but perhaps that’s for the best. If it’s easier to play then more people will be able to get into it, which means the game has a chance at better longevity this time.
Besides, you could just go play with your old VS cards if you want the old game. There’s an embarrassment of TCG riches between the deck archetypes and the teams and the flavorful mechanics. There’s tons of sets and cards, and when I sit down to play every now and then, it’s still a blast.
I also like that they’re packaging four sets of team cards in a box instead of going the TCG route, which can be intimidating and costly. Now you drop 50 bucks and get the full package. Although given Marvel’s grudge against Fox, you can count out X-Men of Fantastic Four. I’d wager Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, Inhumans and Masters of Evil would be among the starting teams.
The one thing I dislike is the name. VS System 2PCG sounds like military code and doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue. It reminds me of one of the most mind-numbing video game titles, Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Day. VS System was never the flashiest title to begin with because it doesn’t let you know that it’s a game about battling superheroes. For this new version of the game, something like “VS System: Superhero Battles” or “VS System: Heroes & Villains” would be better — whatever gets the message across.
Bottom line: I’m excited VS System is back, I can’t wait to see the cards, and I NEED to play it NOW! Just please consider changing the title before you go to print. =)
When I first learned VS. System, I learned one rule wrong. That inadvertent change went unnoticed for years of playing the game. I didn’t go to game stores, so I taught my friends (the incorrect) rules and we all played by them, never knowing we were playing the game wrong. When we finally discovered our error, we briefly tried the real rules and elected not to use them, since we felt the mistakenly interpreted rule was actually better for our mistake.
The change was simple: instead of attacking until you were out of attacks, you and your opponent would take turns attacking. That is, if you had the initiative, you would attack, then your opponent would attack, then you would attack, and so forth until both players passed.
There were a few wordings that needed tweaking. For example, cards that said “at the start of your attack step” we had to interpret as “at the start of your first attack step each turn,” but by and large stuff just made sense. If you thought Formation took a while under the old rules, imagine it this way!
Despite this bizarre rules misinterpretation, VS was the only card game that truly compelled me. What you have described here doesn’t really sound like the VS System I know or the VS System everyone else knew, but it also sounds pretty dang awesome to me. I’m hopeful the branding will be updated to something like VS Arcade (VSA) or VS System 2.0 or something, to better represent all the thought that has gone into this design update. But regardless, I’m on-board.
Can’t wait to play it!
What about the box sets that were released at gencon last year, are they going to be compatible with the new cards that are going to be released this year at gencon?
The reasoning behind the changes are perfect.
If you’ve played/judged/TO’d as many tournaments as I have, you’ll understand why many of the more complex (or time consuming) mechanics had to be modified or removed.
Plot twists only from the hand cuts down on players having to look at their face down cards in their resource row… or forgetting to play them.
Front row/back row makes the formation step much simpler.
Full recovery takes that decision time away.
And although we may be divided on what are “good” or “bad” changes, at least VS is back… which I thought was never going to happen.
Maybe I’ll see some of you guys are a local tournament or game store.
Two questions about deck building:
Are there neutral cards?
Can you mix the “teams”?
Thanks!
I’m part of the Facebook group and am glad to see more optimistic posts here I have my own questions about where this is going but I’m willing to sacrifice $50 to make my own decision instead of just flaming, “This isn’t VS System!” I get there may have been problems bringing in new players with complexity of rules but I loved those rules and mechanics. I was a long time TCG player and dabbled in a dozen games but focused on Yugioh and M:tG because they had the most support, but when I discovered VS (after it was already dead) I fell in love with the mechanics and dropped all other card games. Even if this venture flops I’m glad to see that people realize there was something special about VS and are trying there best to make it successful for a long time when it comes back. So now, here’s the only part I’m going to flame: “VS SYSTEM 2PCG” is a really weird title. There’s zero sex appeal to that name. Have you tried saying, “2PCG” out loud? It’s a mouthful and doesn’t roll off the tongue very well. If the cards aren’t already printed and ready to ship I’d take another whack at the acronym. Someone on Facebook had pitched, “ECG,” meaning: Evolving Card Game. This is my personal favorite because it pays homage that yes, this is our second attempt at the game and giving a nod to our veteran players and still fits thematically that your Main Character levels up, IE Evolve. That’s my two cents and I look forward to giving you at the very least, fifty bucks in the future, and hopefully, a LOT more!
Actually, ECG is already coined by Alderac Entertainment for Doomtown, it’s Expandable Card Game. So, no, they can’t use that.
Potential new player here. never got into original game but the mechanical elements listed here seem to be sensible and smart to me. I hope I can score a copy of the base set at GenCon 🙂
I have played Vs. System since the first Avengers Marvel series release until the final Marvel Evolution series. The last deck I built was the infamous Deadpool/Cable infinite attack deck that was created by gamers to counter the infamous Blink shift build. They were both crazy builds, and both competitive and ridiculous to play…Although fun and required concentration to pull off. I really enjoyed the Secret Avengers reservist build from the Civil War series as well. I am happy that Vs. System is making a “come back”…but it looks to be a “one hit wonder” since I see that there will be no booster packs for expansion potential (unless popularity and marketing changes this new route). I will LOVE to give this new card game a try, but I hope it will somewhat pick up where it left off as far as building certain teams and affiliations and the introduction of booster packs offering “rare” collectible cards that are needed to build exiting and challenging decks for some of us “old schoolers” in the TCG realm.
I’m a VS old schooler. I don’t want booster packs. They don’t expand the game: they create a barrier of entry requiring some combination of luck or money to overcome. Everything in one box = better game. Expansions can themselves come in their own box to expand the base.
Down with booster packs. They are and always were a garbage idea.
Amen! So glad I won’t have to buy any more boosters.
I’m all for expansions though! Bring ’em on!
Yeah, so this isn’t vs. and what made vs. great eat that unlike EVERY other sorry hero ccg it was complex. Every other one was too simple to keep anyone’s attention, which is why none of them lasted nearly as long as vs.
I think you underestimate how much the strategy of vs. is what kept it alive and stopped it from being boring.
Simplify the rules don’t throw the rules out. I think you will lose your vets with this move.
Two really big questions that aren’t answered here:
1) Does the game still use threshold as its cost mechanic, or will Plot Twists now require resources to play?
2) Will the characters still use the same value growth system (5/5 for 3, 7/7 for 4, 9/9 for 5, 12/12 for 6) as the old game?
I have to say that the rule changes on the surface seem like a good decision – VS. often felt like a math exam, not a game.
I guess the final question would be how many tutors/recur cards are going to be in the main game. When decks became all tutors, recur and degenerate combos, that is when you lost me as a player.
So, we obviously still need more information, but it is safe to say this is *not* VS. However, it is interesting. I think I will enjoy playing this new super-hero game.
So… I never played VS, but I have been a part of other TCGs like Magic since the beginning. I love playing but I am also a collector – my question is –
Is there anything about this game to scratch the collector / trader itch?
People complain about the price of Magic cards, but I can guarantee after 20 years experience, if Magic cards ceased to have collectibility or monetary value, the game would have MASSIVE drop off.
So… anything in the new VS system for us old school collectors and traders?
Let me know – thanks!
Awesome guys, thanks for this product. I can’t wait to play with it.
Will there be DC characters again or is this just Marvel?
Looking forward to this. The changes sound like a smart move, esp. with the popularity of card games without boosters nowadays! Smart!
I will DEFINITELY buy if DC Characters are included!
I’ve never played the original game but i’m super excited for this new game and if your going to use your other licenses, like alien and predator (among others), you already sold me on the game. Predator VS captain america….SOLD!
P.S. predator wins that easy….
I’ll be waiting for the DC run. I hope you will branch out to include DC. I pray to God that you’ll release another Legion (of Super-heroes) set! There are still a lot of awesome Legion characters that were left out of the previous set.
Best.
I can’t wait!
I truly hope that the $10k circuits make a comeback. I think most of us original players are older now and we need that significant incentive to continue playing competitively. Plus, there is room for a new, dominant card game take over. With this new restructured gameplay and a respectable reward pool, this could be a really huge comeback…
Hello,
I’ve been scouring the internet for comprehensive instructions for playing the original Vs. System and haven’t been able to find any updated rulings, ban lists, or even complete how to play videos
Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Vs. System was updated in 2015 to Vs. System 2PCG. You can find our Compiled Rulebook, FAQs, and card wordings on our Organized Play page. http://www.upperdeck.com/OP/